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Mr Pankaj Gupta,
I can fully understand your agony, as I've gone thru something worse. One of my designs was not cleared for over a month and when I met the concerned engineer for a follow up, he told me that he hadn't even begun checking (after a month!) as the drawings and designs were in SI units and he was familiar with only FPS system!

K.N.CHANDRASHEKARAN

IN the post-earthquake scenario in Ahmedabad, there was almost a manhunt for the "errant" structural engineer whose building had fallen. But it was found that in many buildings, the structural engineer on the municipal record was not the real designer of the building. WHo then has to take on the legal as well as moral liability?

In AHmedabad, like in Mumbai, there is already a licensing system of  some sort for structural engineers in place, though this does not entail taking any examinations- Without this license one cannot officially practise in the city. But quite often,  consultants do not use their own structural engineering license but  use the license  of a small-time structural engineer registered with the corporation while submitting  building proposal.

The reasons are manifold:
a) Some consultants have not registered  with the corporation for various reasons
b) Some consultants do not wish to sign the stability certificate which is mandatory and which perforce makes them commit to having supervised the building and therby certify the quality of construction when they have not really done so.

Also, in a situation wherein  the license of an employee of a firm may have been used in a project, who takes responsilbilty for the project when the employee leaves the firm?

In order to address this issue and also to discourage the system of dual  structural engineers (design structural engineer vs. municipal structural engineer) on a project, the idea of registering not just the individual but also the firm was mooted. This will hopefully eliminate the fly-by-night structural engineer. 

Another suggestion put forward was that for a firm to be registered as Consulting Engineers, a majority of the partners/directors have themselves to be certified Professional engineers. This is a welcome step as it will discourage architectural or other service providers from projecting themselves as engineers with just one token engineer in the firm.

It would be nice to hear of others' views/experiences on this issue.

Alpa

It has been interesting going through emails in this e-conference. In terms of suggestions/possible solutions, I have seen some initiatives in Uttaranchal, which I would like to highlight here. In Uttaranchal, the Government is talking about integrating Earthquake Resistant measures in the Awaas Yojanas. Also, my office, Asian Disaster Preparedness Center, Thailand is implementing a Technical Assistance program in Uttaranchal (funded by ADB) for strengthening disaster mitigation and management. Under this program, a workshop was done with building centers, discussing means of getting building centers more involved in earthquake resistant construction, training for masons in a way that better non-engineered construction takes place. I think that the government/private sector organizations that undertake major construction work, without appropriate structural understanding must be targeted for promoting construction of safer structures in the future.

Sincerely,
Supriya

Hi Colleagues,

I am following the e-conference very closely.

I have the following to note :-

a) I am finding that we engineers have developed an inferiority complex with regard to Architects. I have been in the profession for the last twenty years and am working with different Architects. In 75% of the projects we are carrying out the structural design, we are involved with the architect from the conceptual stage of the project. We see no problem co-ordination with architects, who do accept suggestion and recommendation given by us. Even in the balance 25% projects, the architects do consider our suggestion and make relevant changes. Ultimately it is team effort, which does wonders. Ultimately they are trained as Architects and we as Engineers. Respect them for that and we will get our due respects.

Why this collision path? ? ?

b) I find more problems with my colleague engineers, who try to under quote to get jobs. But our experience is that we should ignore such colleagues, who may succeed in taking a job here and there, but in most cases the clients have been returning to us with their future jobs. In most cases we have been getting fees based the IIA recommendation. (We follow this since we have no mode of payment of our own).

c) I think we need to strengthen our education base. I was happy to attend the course conducted by Dr. S. Jain & Co., in 1995, Finite Element Method and CAD I Civil Engineering by Goa Engineering College, Seismic  Design and Detailing of RCC Framed Structures by ISSE.

I would have been happy if some more from the engineer's faculty & Authorities Conducted more such courses, so that the entire engineering community could Benefit from such courses. I would like some comments on the above.

A.OLAVO CARVALHO

Dear Friends,

Good afternoon to all of you.I would like to raise the following issues of importance and look forward to your valuable suggestions and views.

The various building regulations become a flop when the authorities take punitive action against the violators without logical structural thinking.If a building does not have a proper or sufficient frontage,the civic authorities demolish the encroaching portion of  the building and the problem ends for them there. Legally the building is corrected and how they will behave structurally is a
question to ponder,and surprisingly this is not at all given a thought! The problem gets compounded when the possession of the building changes hands with time.Each person will make some
alteration and the structural framework will be a puzzle without an answer?! The various authorities should ensure that the structural plan and details of a particular building, at the time of getting
possession(registration) and at disposal stage, should be compulsorily submitted by the seller, and the buyer also should be given the copies.To this end a statutory body of civil engineers
empowered with enforcement (same rules and regulations) throughout India if formed, will be useful and purposeful.The Government also should heed the say of the body as final and supreme from the civil engineering point of view.This will enable the Government to save valuable resources during calamities.

The organisers of this E-Conference are to be commended for taking the initiative to protect the image of civil engineering and for betterment of our countrymen, and providing a forum for exchange of valuable thoughts and suggestions.They have acted as per the following quote.

"Start by doing what is necessary,then what is possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible".-St.Francis of Assisi.

Looking forward to further interaction.

Thanks for the wonderful opportunity.

K.Sivakumar,

Hello Vidyut:
This is about your suggestion.

Mr. Vidyut Gandhi wrote
 

Regading the quality at design level I want to suggest one thing.  Why not the fresh engineers/graduate enginners should take the help of  established & competant  structural engineers like Shirish patel (bombay), VMS (ahmedabad) & many  more in designing the  stuctures at conceptual level ? Their drawings can bear the names of  those leading engineers alongwith their own names. Leading engineers can get royalty out of this ! Ofcourse the liability lies with the engineers who take help from leading engineers.


I think your suggestion is difficult to accept. A person who doesn't have enough experience to design a building should not accept such assignments. He should start his practice only when he has enough confidence and not before that. Such a person should engage himself with other consultants as a design engineer for several years before starting on his own.

However if he wishes to seek another engineer's advice that may be done only at personal level. Since the design fee of most of the leading engineers would be much higher a younger design professional may not be in a position
to afford the costs of seeking their advice.

With best regards

Truly
Rajiv Sharma

Hello Friends :


This is about solutions on some issues raised by Dr. Jain and a few messages recd. earlier. For your convenience I am giving it in question/answer format. Licensing of Structural Engineers:

Q. The issue before us is that what we gain by licensing and ultimately who benefits from it?

A.  Society in general benefits by licensing of engineers. Keep in mind that there are engineer-bureaucrats, engineer-managers, engineer-businessman and so on. Not all are professional engineers. So a licensing procedure will go a long way in identifying professional engineers from the rest. If a professional engineer decides to leave his profession temporarily or permanently he must inform the licensing authority to see if he could retain his license. So the idea is that only those engineers who are active in profession can keep their license.

Q. What should be the process of licensing?

A. I feel that young /fresh engineers must work for a period of minimum 5 years before they can apply for their PE license. During their employment they should be guided by a senior engineer who has a PE license. After completing the formal 5 years training they should appear for an exam. where real life problems should be asked. Their exam. answer sheets should be reviewed by other PEs. When the young engineers meet the testing standards they should be given the PE status.

Q. Well it sounds good but what about other engineers who are already in practice?

A. It is not easy to formulate a magic formula which will satisfy all. However we have to start somewhere. An engineer who is in the profession for more than 15 years may be given license unconditionally provided he has actually worked in the area for which he is seeking license. Like a site engineer for 15 years should not be given a license for design engineering. Engineers who have not acquired that much experience should submit their designs and details of their past works. This can be examined by the licensing authorities and if they are felt competent enough they should be given PE titles.

Q. What about those who fail to qualify for their PE license?

A. Such persons can acquire license by appearing for exam. only.

Q. What about AMIE engineers ?

A. AMIE engineers should also appear for PE exam., if they don't qualify for their PE license by virtue of their experience.

Q. But similar licenses in other fields have not worked like take for example doctors and IMA.

A. True it has not worked because there is no will in IMA to take actions against quacks. However to make the licensing more effective it is essential that we have a quick system for redressal of grievances else everything will go in vain. We must have a system where dissatisfied clients can ask for justice. Licensing authorities must be empowered to punish the guilty.

Q. It may take lot of effort and time till we have such a system in place. What can be done now without out side help?

A. Quality is not a prisoner of any regulation. A better quality in design and construction can be achieved if we try to implement it. Everyone has a policeman inside him who gently knocks and tells what is wrong and what is right. Just wake him up and keep him alive.

Training of Young Engineers by Professional Engineers:
 

Dr. Jain has suggested that professional engineers should devote some time in training of younger people. It sounds good  but is not so easy for the professional engineer. Where he can start from? It should be other way round. Young engineers should be given access to senior professionals where they can seek opinion of senior engineers on professional matters. (See Mr. Vidyut Gandhi's suggestion and my reply on that). It is certainly possible to keep aside some hours every month for young engineers and see if we can help them. They can come to seek professional help from senior engineers during those hours. Seismic Tests etc.

I feel that a PE exam. is the answer rather than only Seismic Engineering Test.

With best wishes

Truly
Rajiv Sharma

Dear fellow Professionals

SORRY FOR JOINING LATE.

I congratulate Sudheer & Alpa for initiating the dialogue.

I think all of us r in agreement re ills in our civil & struct engg field. main problem is how to improve the current situation , knowing enormity of problem. how to begin , how to set the ball rolling.

following r some of my thoughts  : I Internal  problems:

- poor education . al r agreeing that there is no continuing education programs even in Metros , leave aside cities/towns. this can b definitely improved. 1 day seminars r not v. effective , more superficial & overview type. i was involved in organizing seminars thru Instt of Engrs 1  on earthquake & other on Seismic assessment & retrofitting. we should hv more indepth courses , atleast 4-5 sessions of 3 hrs each & partly class room type , partly interactive type. few months ago 1 course was organised by ISSE (Indian SOciety of Structural engrs) in Mumbai at V.J.T.I..on

Structural Steel Design . it was on 5 Fridays evening 5-8 p.m. totally 15 hrs. 5 diif faculties had come. we kept fees of only 750 Rs so that many would come by paying themselves & not sponsored by their companies. there were more than 45 participants. most of them were quite happy that they definitely learnt lot of new things. 1 expert talked on welding , (procedure , types ,inspection etc).

After spending more than 20 years in this field , i also learnt many things @ welding . as normally in civil works quality expectations r low compared to eqpt fabr , mech works. if we don't know then how can we specify in drgs/ tenders or supervise /extract at site?  i remember referring 1 interesting book of proceeding of 1 similar 1week course on struct dynamics organized by M.I.T. for USA professional from industries way back in 1969-70 . course material is published as book & v. useful even now.Many contributors like Dr Biggs later wrote separate books.

we r planning series of such courses , each of 4-5 sessions of 3 hrs each , as part of C.E.P .e.g.

1.on  comp usage in analysis & design : how to idealize & how not to, how to chk & then interprete results. (esp FEM results)  incl solved examples.

2. on basic concrete technology; use of admixers, what to chk when designer goes to site, what is to b tested , & where

3. design & constr of special structures;  bridges,  marine struct etc

4. Struct dynamics: basics, earthquake analysis, eqpt fdns ,

5. Soil investigation : what to specify , chk/interprete soil report, effect on fdn design.

6 Pile Fdns : incl pile cap design , lateral capacity/ design.

 I am sure there will b good response. only problem it takes lot of organising efforts & it is not easy to spare quality time while carrying out normal professional activities. All who wish to participate in organizing r welcome.

If  ANY1  is having good course material we appeal to send the same.

About other issues i will post separately part 2.

Regards

Shekhar Ghate

Dear fellow Professionals

I wish to continue earlier dialogue.

2. External problems
a).To improve output  & accountability of various other agencies mainly buider/develoer, we hv started in a small way. , we hv taken initiative , formed a group jointly by BMC(Bombay Municipal Corp),   WITH Insttn of En grs (Mharashtra state centre) , ISSE, Indian Inst of Arch(Mumbai centre), BAI ,PEATA etc. we r revising submission formats , introducing ISSE format for certificates to b submitted by Struct engr, Archtect, Supervisor,& above all builder/developer.BMC has agreed in principle to  revise the format. nitty-gritty r being worked out.

however i hv to admit , it is taking long time , some people from our fraternity r opposing some clauses .e.g. we hv suggested to carry out soil testing , submit some calc ( not some sample calc) , insist on ductile det as per 13920, subm of det drgs., which some think is little too much for the fees being paid. we hv suggested better input from Arch , other agencies elect , fire fighting etc that layout & sizing r better , to hv  min modif/breaking/chipping , maintenance problems at later date . once this goes thru it may b follwed at other municipl corp.

b) re nodal agency: is a must. but we must hv a body having legal status. w/out engr's bill how to hv 1? we don't hv pressure group. who will initiate this group. it has to be started by leading professionals, not by academicians from IITs .  we hv many instititutios/ associatios who work separately & sometimes having conflicting interests.

i am trying to bring atleast few insttn to work jointly. can Asso of consulting engrs take the lead.?

c) Regstrn as Professional engr. When BMC started paractce of registration of Struct engr , initially aspiant were screened  by leading professionals. later on it was passed on to BMC. I think to begin with we can form a  committee of experts who will approve  & then the name gets in the BMC list. Insttn of engrs , ISSE can take lead FOR THIS. same can be followed for all other cities.  Also  registration shall be for separate area of specialization as suggested earler . I request Mr Shirish Patel & other eminent professional to respond to this.  if there is consensus , we can definitely take it up.

Regards

Shekhar Ghate

Dear All
for implementation of project there is necessay to do the feasibility analysis of site project and the cost benefits analysis  also with approved organisation.

narendra

My greetings to all the conference participants.

The initiatives proposed by the moderators at the end of the third day were thought provoking. Adding another institution to the many existing will not be a solution at all. A movement is required to achieve the goals through proactive attempts by practising engineers working is small towns and cities with a few years experience like some of us involved in this conference. Only then would it be able to encompass the vastness of our country. Something quite similar to Gandhiji’s Satyagraha movement, but since he showed us the way once, this time we have to manage without him. The best outcome of this conference may not be establishing another organisation, but starting such a movement.

The suggestions for conducting tests to license or evaluate structural engineers may require some extra thought. The more preferable strategy may be based on the experience profile of the applicant. It should be similar to the way a visa or immigration to a foreign country is procured. There could be points for each type of project undertaken and type of work done. Weights could be given for the work done depending on its complexity. A person with a tally exceeding a certain number of points can be given a special license. The applicant should show proper evidence for the work that he is claiming points. Conducting exams is surely a simpler way but it would only lead to people studying to clear the exams and may not ensure that we become better structural engineers.

with warm regards,
Kiran Akella

Dear All,

In continuation with the "small" steps one can initiate to improve the present scenario,

a) Taking engineering issues to the  lay person. It would be nice if we could come up with a small booklet "How to buy a house" We could educate the prospective buyer in looking at various issues while buying a house- Legal, architetcural, planning but more importantly from our point, the issues of good engineering.  We may not want to make it very complicated but outline basic engineering features to be looked at while selecting a home. We need to impress on the buyer that unless the basic skeleton is healthy, any kind of good  architecture is only cosmetic. Such a book could be funded and distributed by housing load agencies. For improving structural engineering standards in our country, a demand based initiative can work as a big catalyst.

b) Prepare  a booklet for architects educating them about Basic engineering issues to be considered while planning and enlighten them about code requirements- such as min width of column, recommended beam and column width-depth ratios as per IS 13920 and so on. Perhaps PEATA and other such organisations could be drafted into helping in this.

c) Guideline booklets for Masons- A lot of work has been done on this in states such as Gujarat (and Uttaranchal) post-earthquake and the state authorities there may be contacted for allowing for its wider distribution.

d) Establish a website which can be a resource data base having  information on all   "indigenous" books/guidelines/training courses/research work/capacity building projects. It is today easier to find out what is being done internationally than in India. NICEE is doing already doing some work in this regard.

Alpa

Namaste All,

In the aftermath of the Gujarat quake I did observe how the building industry functions internally.

One reason why inadequate structural design and implementation is so rampant is that to a great extent new construction is quite similar to existing structures. This has the following consequences :

1. The average builder regards the structural engineer to be someone who merely copies an older set of drawings with minor modification. Stamps them for due compliance and submits them. Evidently he doesn't regard this as a lot of work and tends to pay very small amounts.

2. The structural engineers who have reconciled themselves to this system seem to accept the lower amount of money cause it meant less amount of work, and they try to make up by doing more number of assignments in a given amount of time. There basic knowledge stagnates and their ability to attack fresh assignments from first principles atrophies. Any knowledge upgradation becomes a herculean task.

 3. Once a structurally inadequate design finds favour ( possibly because it leads to cost benefits ). It tends to replicate itself and soon an isolated case becomes a rampant disease.

So what is the solution? Some things that come to mind are :

1. As many emails suggest there is a need to make the community more vibrant say by having journals so that even if apparently similar structures are being designed by architects there are always new innovations being introduced by structural engineers.

2. If licensing is implemented structural engineers should be required to renew the license every 5 years or so, to make sure their knowledge / skill remains at acceptable levels.

3. The industry needs to be more vibrant. It should have greater interaction with allied engineering fields and raw material manufacturers to make innovation and novelty a norm rather than an exception. For instance like others the building industry is majorly affected by costs. As of now chances are if a good structural engineer is retained, the fees shall be high AND the cost of implementing the structure designed would be high. Now if the structural engineers can come up with innovations that reduce cost of construction without compromising on safety they would win greater respect faster than by any other method. So cost reduction can be a thrust area for research.

regards,

Dhirendra Tripathi

Thanks to Dr.Sh.SKJ   for  providing  discussion on professional issues in INDIA.

 It is  accepted  that there is  need for  institutional set-up in India for active engineering community. We know existance of various  institutions govt &private across the country  still mega-projects,projects  financed by World bank etc .goes to Foreign Consultants.There is point  to see  why?Money out?

 Here i have to say something  for  future institution/council.

1.0 The  Engineering Council desired:

      - Institution  should have set- objectives/goals in various engineering areas         e.g. Buildings,Industries,Offshore etc.
       -Providing  training,opportunities for members in research/projects, open seminars, regulations of codes, cost_saving factors in design,  design strength,  contractibility, reliability, and aesthetics in the solution of a civil or structural engineering problem.
      -  Institution shall have independant  business plan,service products &  financial base.
      -  Preparing action plans   for Continuing Professional Development of personal qualities - knowledge/skill distribution of responsibilities among members  inorder to achieve desired goals.
      - The  licensing process,membership, working  of institution should be transparent and 100% Corruption free.

2.0 Functions
      - Selection of regulating/council  members ,selection criteria under democratic fashion.
      - Creating  awareness through good practice  in construction,QA,engg ,cost-saving,strength requirements etc to end user.
      - Ensuring  feedback system  from society to know  performance of institution & services offered.
      - Developing standards  to civil engineering problems/solution in the event of quake,cyclone etc
      - New Law/policies  shall be prepared  to meet  objectives  & effective  monitoring  functions  at all levels.
      - Acceptance  to change for  growing needs of technology,compettive environment -others institutions & social demands.

regards
RAJENDRA RAUT

Hello,
This is Barnali ghosh from Cambridge University, researching on soil structure interaction for building during sesimic shaking by physical modelling ( Centrifuge). Its interesting that many people have commented on the level of education in our engineering colleges (apart from IIT and IISc). I have come from one of the sub standard governement colleges in Bihar and feel strongly that in most of these colleges the syllabus is strongly outdated and old. Most of the teachers cling to their old notes from the seventies which have seen many springs. In these environments students score very well in exams but hardly have proper understanding of the subjects. We need to
have a "thinking" academic environment in all the colleges, not just in the pristine colleges if we want to think about the future of the profession as a whole. Secondly there was an idea floated that it will be a good idea to let young engineers meet once in a year in a friendly environment so that they can share their work experience.Recently in Uk we had the chance to attend the young geotechnical engineers syposium in Dundee. This event was organised by the British Geotechnical Society and brought all theyoung researchers and engineers working in the industry together on a common platform. It was a fantastic opportunity to interact in an informal environment.Such events should be encouraged in India as well.
 

regards
barnali

Dear All
In continuation of small steps there is also need of following thing

1 Traning at the Grass root level , when we say that the guideline for masons, there is a need of traning to masons at grass root level, UNDP-Bhuj trained around 2000 masons in seismic safety and retrofitting techniques, these trained masons now aware about seismic safty requirement. The traning required not to trained the masons but also to aware the masons about their responsibility towards the construction process.
 
2 Documentation of Works  In the global changing of world its required a proper documentation, so we can compare the structural changes and the share the innovative new technology.
 
narendra pal singh

Dear fellow engineers/PROFESSORS/OTHER FETERNETY INCLUDING ARCHITECTS. WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BUSINESS, AND ARE INTER-DEPENDENT WHAT WE AS ABODY NEED TO DO NOW IS

1] GROUP UP –FORM INTERIUM ADHOCK COMITTE AND  ASK FOR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE A LEGISLATION IN THE MODELS OF COMPANY SECRETARY-ASSOCATION [SO THAT LEGALLY THIS BECOMES THE SOURCE FOR –LICENCING-MEMBERSHIP-FELLOWSHIP-FOR GOVT,PRIVATE,PRACTICING INDIVIDUVALS] THIS ASSOSIATION ALSO TAKES UP DETACHMENT OF PRACTICING LICENCE FOR ALL INCASE OF ESABLISHED COMPLAINTS.

2]SET UP ACOORDINATION COMMITTEE A]TO REGISTER ALL OTHER ASSOCIATIONS IN THE FIELD.B]TO TAKE REVIEW OF ALL IS/ISO/ASTM/BS/RELEVENT CODES INRELATION TO INDIAN CONDITIONSC]SET-UP ARESERCH INSTITUTE-WITH FUNDING FROM TATAS-RELIANCE-GAMMONS-AFCONS-ESSAR-Etc.,TO MONITAR FOR FIVE YEARS SOIL MOBILITY ,WATERLEVELS,WIND AND OTHER FORCES COMPARABLE TO FLORIDA-OKALHOMA-SEATTLE  AND EVOLVE  CHANGES  IN STRUCTURAL/FOUNDATION CODES/MATERIAL CODES.

THANKS
SURYA.N.S.

Chitra Javdekar [Thu Aug 29 23:09:01 2002]
 

Hello All:  
 
 Everyone is asking for some Governmental Regulation/Bill and regulatory Body. But the basic issue is that the profession has its share of Black Sheep. One of the posts by Roark Consultants was that in his case the builder found someone else to design the structure to his 'structured specifications'.  
 
The main  professional competence problem concerns buildings for housing mostly done in the private sectors. These will ensure better end product for the customer  who is no more an investor but is mostly the end user nowadays.
 
I received some feedback/ideas from others well known in the field and therefore elaborating on my suggestions regarding role of financial institutions, I'd suggest that

* The Financing/Mortgage  Institutions e.g. HDFC,ICICI,SBI Home finance
* General Insurance Companies that insure buildings
* Banks and other lending bodies who grant loans against housing/buildings

 
can be encouraged to seek a  SIGNED AFFIDAVIT  from the structural designer, clear documentation/records regarding:
 

1.     BIS codes adopted for the design and drawings of the foundations and the  structures
2.     Design loads and other assumptions
3.     BIS codes adopted for the structural materials (  cement, concrete, steel, wood etc .  )
4.     Standards  for testing & acceptance  of  all structural work, including the foundations
5.     Other Job-specific special precautions advised during construction

They can also seek an affadavit from the Architect who certifies 'Commencement & Completion' stating that these have been duly observed.
 
These institutions can insist that for major jobs the  designs are "Proof Checked" by engineering educational institutions Government and semi Goverment bodies in Mumbai have done this in past with IIT Mumbai, VJTI Mumbai, CBRI.
 
All these certifications will be available to the buyers and the societies for future structural audit (mandatory in Maharashtra now after 15 years).
 
Thanks
 
Chitra N. Javdekar

Shekhar Ghate.

Dear Alpa
re registration issue of individuals and firms, in case of issue of stability certificate  firm can give stability certificate on firms leter head signed by individual employee who is regirsted engineer.  If that employee leave half way then another employee of the same firm can sign. i.e.  MIDC  accepts above procedure. The signing fellow is  chartered engineer , member of Institute of Engineer. I donot know whether it is accepted by BMC.

Now stability certificate mentions that  work is supervised by signing engineer and work is carried out as per his  drawings (approved)  prepared by him . In reality  how many engineers supervised work, have their own full time   supervisors postedat site. How can we certify the work not supervised by us?  Then why most of us are signing stability certificate when no control on actual construction? Either we should change the stability certificate format or insist  having atleast some say on site execution.

Regards

Shekhar Ghate

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